kage

[bassmanben]

Originally Posted by skrilla

Check out page 44, section 28.95 in the new 2014-2015 reg book.

Section 28.65(d) states no undersize fish may be gaffed and then goes into description of what a gaff actually is. Also states landing net requirements. But nowhere does it say a spear, harpoon, or kage is illegal to use in CA.

If questioned by a warden you can say its a brain spike because essentially a head shot is what you want when using a kage. As stated in a previous post it's purpose is to dispatch the fish BEFORE sinking a gaff into it.

Yeah, we had a similar conversation about the topic earlier this year up in Norcal. Had to piece together why a Kage was not allowed. Essentially if you go through the regs piece by piece:

28.65. GENERAL

. Except as provided in this article, fin fish may be taken only on hook and line or by hand. Any number of hooks and lines may be used in all ocean waters and bays except:

So it says the only way that you can take any fin fish is by hook and line or by hand, EXCEPT through 28.65 (a)-(f). That's when you get to 28.65(d) -
(d) No gaff hook shall be used to take or assist in landing any finfish shorter than the minimum size limit. For the purpose of this section a gaff hook is any hook with or without a handle used to assist in landing fish or to take fish in such a manner that the fish does not take the hook voluntarily in its mouth. No person shall take finfish from any boat or other floating device in ocean waters without having a landing net in possession or available for immediate use to assist in landing undersize fish of species having minimum size limits; the opening of any such landing net shall be not less than eighteen inches in diameter.

So you're allowed to use a gaff "hook" to take a fish, as long as it is legal size. But since it doesn't mention spear, harpoon or gun as an "exception" then you aren't allowed to use those in "take". Of course the next question is, "what is take?"

The handbook defines "Take" in 1.80 -

1.80. TAKE. Hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill fish, amphibians, reptiles, mollusks, crustaceans or invertebrates or attempting to do so.

Shove all that bullsh*t together and you would come up with this:

You can only Hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill fish, amphibians, reptiles, mollusks, crustaceans or invertebrates or attempt to do so with hook and line or by hand, or with a gaff or a net (when fishing - spearing is different as described in the DFG Q&A response)

There's no doubt the whole regulation book is confusing and poorly worded. Now, if you were to use a Kage to take a fish and a warden comes up to you, three things could happen:
1. Warden may not know the reg
2. May not care, or
3. May choose to run you roughshod for it.

[jorluivil]

Originally Posted by bassmanben

Yeah, we had a similar conversation about the topic earlier this year up in Norcal. Had to piece together why a Kage was not allowed. Essentially if you go through the regs piece by piece:

28.65. GENERAL

. Except as provided in this article, fin fish may be taken only on hook and line or by hand. Any number of hooks and lines may be used in all ocean waters and bays except:

So it says the only way that you can take any fin fish is by hook and line or by hand, EXCEPT through 28.65 (a)-(f). That's when you get to 28.65(d) -
(d) No gaff hook shall be used to take or assist in landing any finfish shorter than the minimum size limit. For the purpose of this section a gaff hook is any hook with or without a handle used to assist in landing fish or to take fish in such a manner that the fish does not take the hook voluntarily in its mouth. No person shall take finfish from any boat or other floating device in ocean waters without having a landing net in possession or available for immediate use to assist in landing undersize fish of species having minimum size limits; the opening of any such landing net shall be not less than eighteen inches in diameter.

So you're allowed to use a gaff "hook" to take a fish, as long as it is legal size. But since it doesn't mention spear, harpoon or gun as an "exception" then you aren't allowed to use those in "take". Of course the next question is, "what is take?"

The handbook defines "Take" in 1.80 -

1.80. TAKE. Hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill fish, amphibians, reptiles, mollusks, crustaceans or invertebrates or attempting to do so.

Shove all that bullsh*t together and you would come up with this:

You can only Hunt, pursue, catch, capture or kill fish, amphibians, reptiles, mollusks, crustaceans or invertebrates or attempt to do so with hook and line or by hand, or with a gaff or a net (when fishing - spearing is different as described in the DFG Q&A response)

There's no doubt the whole regulation book is confusing and poorly worded. Now, if you were to use a Kage to take a fish and a warden comes up to you, three things could happen:
1. Warden may not know the reg
2. May not care, or
3. May choose to run you roughshod for it.

4. You can ask him where the fish are biting

[Deamon]

I think I saw a googin named Paulie using a kage on a boat called Pin Merchandise.com on some steroid jacked albacore...I think.

[LawDog]

I don't see the legal issue. It speaks of gaffs because there are laws regulating them (when you can use one and the size of the gaff hook). Unless I'm mistaken, the fact that a kage or spear gaff is not mentioned is in favor of the fisherman. As most laws that are vague benefit the party in question. And to top it off the purpose is like that of a brain spike, to dispatch the fish. The term take is used in the regulations and describes the entire act of fishing so you are just moving the brain spike before the landing of the fish but still in the act of the take.

Does anyone see holes in this logic?

[makobob]

Originally Posted by LawDog

I don't see the legal issue. It speaks of gaffs because there are laws regulating them (when you can use one and the size of the gaff hook). Unless I'm mistaken, the fact that a kage or spear gaff is not mentioned is in favor of the fisherman. As most laws that are vague benefit the party in question. And to top it off the purpose is like that of a brain spike, to dispatch the fish. The term take is used in the regulations and describes the entire act of fishing so you are just moving the brain spike before the landing of the fish but still in the act of the take.

Does anyone see holes in this logic?

Good logic, I use a club after, why not a kage before. Pm sent. SALE pending.

[Old Man in the Sea]

It would be the BEST $40 defense against a GWS if you don't have anything else...!

[jorluivil]

Originally Posted by Old Man in the Sea

It would be the BEST $40 defense against a GWS if you don't have anything else...!

But is it legal to use on a GWS?

[alanw]

Originally Posted by LawDog

I don't see the legal issue. It speaks of gaffs because there are laws regulating them (when you can use one and the size of the gaff hook). Unless I'm mistaken, the fact that a kage or spear gaff is not mentioned is in favor of the fisherman. As most laws that are vague benefit the party in question. And to top it off the purpose is like that of a brain spike, to dispatch the fish. The term take is used in the regulations and describes the entire act of fishing so you are just moving the brain spike before the landing of the fish but still in the act of the take.

Does anyone see holes in this logic?

I agree with bassmanben's conclusion. Rules always state what you cannot do, and may sometimes give specific exceptions. This one says hook and line or by hand only, and gives only exceptions for use of a gaff and/or a net.

[skrilla]

Originally Posted by bassmanben

Yeah, we had a similar conversation about the topic earlier this year up in Norcal. Had to piece together why a Kage was not allowed.

Who's we? And why not piece together why a kage IS allowed?

So it says the only way that you can take any fin fish is by hook and line or by hand, EXCEPT through 28.65 (a)-(f). That's when you get to 28.65(d) -X

I didn't explain how a kage is legal to use as a gaff to take or assist in landing a legal sized fish. I just pointed out under 28.95 would make a kage legal to use in CA because you said it was illegal. I also pointed out 28.65 which you referenced had nothing to do with a harpoon, spear, or kage.

Besides, the Q&A you posted was asking about a harpoon/kage being used to land a halibut in which the answer was no. A kage is not a harpoon, but more like a spear in which the answer was stated yes it's legal to use but if under 28.95.

There's no doubt the whole regulation book is confusing and poorly worded.

Agree. Lots of wording that can be open to interpretation and lead to great debates.

Curious, did the conversation up in Norcal make it to DFW ears or a push made to make a kage legal or to use? Any word on progress if so? Would be cool if a proper fish dispatching device could be well defined and legalized for us kayakers to benefit it's use. Bare handed gill ripping and punching the bejeezus out of a halibut is getting tiresome.

[GregAndrew]

The way I read it is that you cannot use the Kage to brain the fish because the fish has not been landed (secured). Whether or not you are using it to lift the fish up or not, you are using it to assist in landing it. The rules only allow a gaff for that purpose. I agree that the spear referenced is only allowed for "persons" floating or swimming, not from vessels floating on the water. The rules, as you might expect, seem written in advantage of the fish.

[svendawg]

F & G Warden "Your getting a ticket for using a spear/kage"
Me "But officer it was a gaff but the fish straighten it"